Marvin Lewis on the Brian Flores Lawsuit and the Future of Black Coaches, Including Himself

In a wide-ranging interview, the former Bengals coach weighs in on the state of coaching, and what can be done to address persistent diversity issues.

Marvin Lewis has the most extensive track record of any Black coach in NFL history. The Bengals’ head coach from 2003–18, he is now a special advisor to Arizona State coach Herm Edwards and also works for Octagon Sports Management’s Division for career development, advancement and transition.

But, yes, he would love to get back in the NFL if the right situation and—more critically—opportunity presented itself. The scarcity of those opportunities was laid bare by Brian Flores’s explosive lawsuit against the NFL, alleging discrimination in hiring practices. Flores’s legal action may have sent tremors through football and nourished the news cycle before the Super Bowl. But among many Black coaches, the reaction was considerably more complicated and nuanced.

There were nods of familiarity, as elements and themes rang familiar and mirrored the coaches’ personal experiences. There were reconsiderations about whether they, like Flores, had also gone on sham interviews with teams already committed to a white candidate. There was anger when the NFL dismissively responded that the suit was “without merit.” There was also—demonstrably—some caution and skepticism about whether Flores was taking the right approach. While Flores filed his suit as a class action, at this writing, no other Black coaches or executives have joined.

From his base in Phoenix, Lewis, now 63, took inventory of the flaws in the system. Like many, he considered why there are fewer Black NFL head coaches today than when the Rooney Rule—requiring teams to interview a diverse list of candidates for coaching and general manager positions—was imposed nearly 20 years ago. Lewis spoke with Sports Illustrated about the challenges Black coaches face, the nuances behind the grim math and what can be done to improve a defective hiring process.

Editor’s note: The interview was lightly edited for clarity and brevity.

SI: What’s the level of frustration among Black coaches?
Lewis: It’s a frustration from a lot of different areas, not necessarily just coaches. Guys that have been experienced general managers that are African Americans that have not had more opportunities. And they've been successful—Jerry Reese or Rick Smith. You know, Reggie McKenzie, Doug Bailey, Mark Ross, Ray Farmer. And these guys don’t get other opportunities. And I think that’s at a kind of a point where they’re very frustrated. From the outside in, you’re not privy to their interview or their opportunities. But just from the outside and you’re looking and wondering, why not?

SI: What about the Brian Florsuit specifically? It seemed like some people had a tip-off a suit like this might be coming, even if it wasn't going to be him. Were you surprised?
Lewis: Obviously it hit a real boiling point for him, in his quest to be a head coach again. But first off [Flores’ allegation], “We wanted you to lose games so we can have higher draft picks.” As a coach or a player, if you knew that on a team? [Sighs] Your next year is not given. I mean, you don’t know that you’re gonna have a next year. I’m going out there and we’re not trying to win? That just sends the wrong message to the integrity of the entire league. I think, to me, that’s the thing that was so shocking, particularly now that the NFL is so involved in gambling when it used to be such a no-no.

SI: I was struck by the language in the suit that the NFL is managed much like a plantation. You know, it’s basically rich white men profiting off of Black labor. Do you buy that?
Lewis: Me? No. I think these are things that he felt in his mind. But, situations and opportunities have been different. I worked for three family-owned clubs and I thought it was done differently, more personal.

SI: Beyond the numbers, it strikes me that not all jobs are equal… a job in Detroit a world away from a job coaching the Rams—
Lewis: Well, yeah, I think there's a difference in where teams are cap position-wise, where they are draft pick-wise. If you look at the Bears this year: You’re going into a situation where they don’t have picks and they don’t have cap. And that’s totally different than the situation in Jacksonville. It was like the Houston job a year ago. No picks, no cap. And so yeah, that’s all part of the research you do as being the head coach. Where is the team right now? Where are the good players? Where is the young talent? Where are they on contract status and in age? So it varies each and every time where the current status of the squad is.

SI: Right. I’m saying, beyond the low numbers, it’s the circumstances—
Lewis: You know, Hue Jackson spoke about what he went through in Cleveland. “I accepted the job and it did not say we’re going to take the squad down to bare bones and build it back up and try and acquire draft capital.” As soon as we played [the Browns] in 2016, that’s the very first thing he said to me on the bench before the game: “This is not what I signed up for.” We’re gonna lose games purposefully. We’re just gonna take, you know, tie your hands a little bit.

SI: When we hear this idea that the pipeline isn’t providing talent—
Lewis: That’s boloney. It’s boloney. There are a lot of qualified minority, African American coaches. I mean the talent is there. Where they’re drawing out of the pipeline now is guys that were quality control assistants. And then they’re [developing] their quality control system to be the next guy. And that’s kind of closing out a lot of experienced coaches for opportunities.

SI: As we speak, there are fewer Black coaches today than there were when the Rooney Rule was [imposed] 20 years ago. Where’s the disconnect? What specifically isn’t working?
Lewis: Lots of reasons.

SI: What’s a non-obvious one?
Lewis: Hot coaches.

SI: Meaning what?
Lewis: You know, it’s so wild that [hiring] is based on, Does the team have success right now? For whatever reason, people making the hires, they think that this person is bringing [star players] with them. They don’t travel with you! You know, at the end of the day, players win! I mean look, Drew Brees walks out of New Orleans. Sean Payton leaves only a year after. I think one one reason that the ratio of success is so low is because they don’t bring these players with them. A head coach, you coach the football team. You’re not coaching one guy, one individual.

SI: And Black coaches—
Lewis: So [Black coaches] become hot candidates. And then all of a sudden, they’re not. When two years, a year later, they’re probably a better coach than they were then.

SI: Are you still interviewing for jobs?
Lewis: No, I didn’t get a phone call this year. I don’t know why. But I did not interview with one single team this cycle.

SI: If the right job came open, I assume you'd listen.
Lewis: I wanted to coach. There’s no question. And I made that clear. I interviewed for [Washington] and the Cowboys two years ago and three jobs last year. And this year, nothing. I want to coach. What I’m doing now [as special advisor to ASU coach Herm Edwards] is not really on the field, active coaching, right? The year before I served as defensive coordinator. But then I passed the baton. I hoped that I would get back in the NFL as a head coach. Frankly, no one else has offered me anything.

SI: What else would help the process?
Lewis: Well, trying to get feedback for these coaches. That’s, to me, one of the things that can help the process.

SI: You mean from the interview? We didn’t pick you and here’s why—
Lewis: Correct.

SI: Are teams willing to do that?
Lewis: Well, I think it has to come from the league maybe. Are we giving them feedback—positive, negative—about their interview process, so that in the future they can correct that, or they can pass that knowledge on to others? That’s where I think we can really make a difference right there. Here’s what was outstanding. Here’s what might help you for next time.

SI: Have you gotten feedback?
Lewis: My feedback [in the past] has been: Well, we weren’t sure how into it you were. Well, come on, now that’s ridiculous. And then: Do you have the energy to do it? Well, hell. You know. Bruce Arians gets the job at whatever age. [Arians was 67 when hired by the Buccaneers.] Tom Coughlin gets the job at 62. I mean, that's such a cop out.

SI: What are the solutions here? What do we do here?
Lewis: Look harder. Really look hard at the success and records of people, and comparisons, and then make choices based on that. Open up the books. Don’t just go in with the popular guy. Hell, they were talking about Joe Brady as a head coach two years ago in Carolina. He doesn’t make it three games [as offensive coordinator] this year. He’s a hot commodity because somebody in the media comes up with this stuff and then they start pushing the guy’s name. So some guy, an owner, hears this … when the Rooney rule was put in place, people thought there were other guys more in line to get the job in Pittsburgh. You know, Mike Tomlin came in and he caught their attention. And obviously he’s been very, very successful since. And that’s after being a coordinator one year in Minnesota.

SI: How much of this issue just comes down to the fact there are no Black owners?
Lewis: People keep saying that, “People continue to hire people that look like themselves.” But we’ve had some young Black GMs and they’ve hired head coaches who don’t look like themselves—and frankly haven’t even gone into in-depth interviews with other Black coaches. And that’s disappointing. Whether they’re being guided in the process or told who to hire, I have no idea….

SI: Does the lawsuit change the level of frustration among Black coaches and executives?
Lewis: I mean, I think they're just as frustrated, if not more. What Brian did was bring it to light for more people. What it has done [already]: No doubt, it’s brought more outside pressure to take a hard look at some things.

SI: When you’ve talked to other Black coaches—whether it’s at clinics or whether it’s even just interpersonal—what’s your message? You’ve been there. You’ve done it. What are you telling them?
Lewis: I’m telling them, “Don't allow the frustration to hold you back from being prepared.” … I would say there was frustration prior to when I got my opportunity. The Denny Greens, the Tony Dungys, the Ray Rhodes, Sherm Lewises and a lot of other black assistants that came through the ranks of the NFL were frustrated already too. So these guys blazed the trail for me. And when I got my opportunity, I had to make good on it because I owed it to them and for the people coming there after me. And I thought we were in, we were making progress with this. And so I would tell him, “This isn’t the first time around and you just gotta keep—you gotta keep the faith. Keep working towards what your goals are, and we’re gonna keep helping and supporting you. But you can’t throw in the towel. You can’t give into it.”

More NFL Coverage:

• It’s Not About Pipelines. It’s Time to Hire More Black Coaches
• What If Black Coaches Just Turn Down Interviews?
• A Legal Assessment of Flores’s Lawsuit